Curse

ValaOfTheFens · May 09, 2007, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadis

What I don't understand is why Necromancers are whining so much about this Soul Reaping "nerf". You mean they actually have to pay attention to energy now? Wow, what a concept! Welcome to the "Every Other Profession Club" Necros!

There really isn't a problem here. The fact that they are actually lowering the Necromancer's skill costs slowly but surely reinforces that idea. As if the Necromancer wasn't powerful enough already? Let's drop SS to 10 energy!

I just find it difficult to fathom where they are coming from exactly in this mass whining I see. Even after reading posts lambasting the nerf to Soul Reaping I do not see it. So you have to wait 5 seconds between deaths to gain energy. Imagine that... Look at some of the other energy management skills, a lot of them have a LONG recharge time and the net gain is something around what Soul Reaping offers, except yours is "free" and things die a lot so that's not a condition you have to worry about not having around to fuel your energy.

Ummm...generally SR isn't really beneficial until later in the campaigns. In the earlier parts of the games mobs are smaller and so you have fewer enemies and they die pretty much at the same time. But later in the game SR becomes more important due to larger mobs of much higher levels. Its what gives Necros staying power where other casters don't. Keeping blanket hexes up and running is alot of work and by the time you're at the end of your hex chain you'll need to start all over again and your energy will be pretty much gone. SR gives you what you need to keep going. Now its the efficiency of the Necromancer has been cut in half. The MM lags behind the others in the party while s/he waits for his/her energy to recharge and prays the corpses don't vanish before then. The SS...well the SS just hopes something dies before Arcane Echo expires. Lowering energy costs doesn't solve the problem of long recharge times and a now lackluster primary attribute. I still play my Necro but now I have to endure people yelling "y do u only have 5 minions!!". Luckily SS' usually go in twos and we can just cast BR on each other.

SoLS isn't the answer to everything. People keep saying it and it keeps being completely untrue. One skill can't correct or make up for a horrible gap in the Necromancers energy management. No skill in any profession can do that. Not even the legendary Glyph of Chuck Norris can.

TabascoSauce · May 09, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadis

What I don't understand is why Necromancers are whining so much about this Soul Reaping "nerf". You mean they actually have to pay attention to energy now? Wow, what a concept! Welcome to the "Every Other Profession Club" Necros!

There really isn't a problem here. The fact that they are actually lowering the Necromancer's skill costs slowly but surely reinforces that idea. As if the Necromancer wasn't powerful enough already? Let's drop SS to 10 energy!

You have scored two direct hits on why this nerf is a bad idea.

As far as your first paragraph, I'll quote what you conveniently skipped over, that answers your statement more than completely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Riddle me this: What do Soul Reaping (old at least), Expertise, Critical Strikes, Leadership, and Mysticism have in common?

Free, conditional energy regenerating. That's 5 of the 10 primary attributes, based on bringing back energy. All 5 of those professions never had to invest in energy management to play effectively. Occassionally Necromancers would, even BEFORE the nerf, just because sometimes things just wont die enough!!! Coincidently, each has something to do with the profession:

Soul Reaping: Necromancers thrive on death, so they get energy on deaths.
Expertise: Rangers use many attacks, skills, and nonmagical things- all of which cost less thanks to expertise.
Critical Strikes: You get energy back FOR ATTACKING. That's a pretty good deal.
Leadership: Get energy back for shouting.
Mysticism: Get energy back for using enchantments.

So why aren't all these things limited to one activation per 5 seconds? You could say that it is because they aren't overpowered (which is very debatable, as leadership, critical strikes, and expertise provide similar returns to soul reaping- of course the real reason is because of the soul reaping exploit, but shall we continue?).

Whoops, there goes the energy management. 4 other classes get the same kind of benefit, with damage causing skills attached to the primary. Whatever attribute points you put in SR have no DPS benefit whatsoever. And we have long mathematical posts showing how the En returns from any of those other classes is significantly better than capped SR - and they get those attrib points towards skills that do damage.

Was SR overpowered? Pssst - the correct answer is no. Is SR gimped to the point where it is not a valuable primary? Yeah.

Your second paragraph talks about making Necro skills cheaper, which will make Necro an awesome secondary. 10 for FG or SS? What a bargain! Why be a Necro and count timers when you can be an Ele and start with 90 Energy? Or be a monk with SS at 10? Hook Dunkoro up. Even Norgu starts to look good with half cast time on spells and 10 for SS.

Mesmer has awesome skills and is arguably the most popular secondary - but the Fast Cast primary is not as useful in PvE as it is in PvP, so it is an awesome secondary.

Do you want Necro to be in the same boat? Hint - the correct answer is no.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

around · May 09, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

damage causing skills attached to the primary.

Reaper's Mark.

And yes, I hope necros will rot in hell, then emos will maybe stop playing the game and then complaining that they no longer have an infinite energy engine.

TabascoSauce · May 09, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Bwahaha! That skill is:
- you only get one on your skill bar Elite (strike 1)
- the DoT how about this no way really and truly wouldnt lie to ya less than Conjure Phantasm (strike 2 bwahaha!)
- is a Hex so can be removed like Conj Phan (Strike 3! Yer out, its a unusable skill)
- also depends on death of the target while hexed to get en comparable to the target death in SR (uh, wha?)

Oh yeah, I am gonna equip all my Necros with this one. Its so useful! Thanks for the tip!

?????
TabascoSauce

Avarre · May 09, 2007, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Was SR overpowered? Pssst - the correct answer is no.

...

You just lost all credibility in all posts, past and future. Please try to base your arguments on reality, in order to actually have a point.

Also, several of your points about Reaper's are wrong.

TabascoSauce · May 09, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

That's why I am glad you are here, Avarre. You're always polite, insightful, and provide some sort of proof of the things you say.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Series · May 09, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

And yes, I hope necros will rot in hell, then emos will maybe stop playing the game and then complaining that they no longer have an infinite energy engine.

Wow. I certainly hope Anet looks at this guy when seeing who is supporting the SR nerf.

Thomas.knbk · May 09, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Wow. I certainly hope Anet looks at this guy when seeing who is supporting the SR nerf.

I am. It was screwing up PvP. So?

catharsis · May 09, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I play, interestingly enough, a necro and a mesmer.

My mesmer, who theoretically has an -entire- skill tree focusing on energy management, has to plan out his builds meticulously to ensure I have the right balance of energy costs and e-management skills, and this usually involves spending points in not one but TWO trees that have little or no value in PVE. Why? Because Inspiration requires a pretty significant point investment to be useful for energy management, and most of those skills are slooooow to recharge, which means I'm forced to take Fast Casting and Mantra of Recovery to avoid downtime.

Sure, when I get the build right, it runs like a well-oiled machine, but I sure don't have a lot of options. Want Domination AND Illusion in one build? Hey look, all of a sudden I'm forced to use Glyph of Lesser Energy at 0 energy storage, because I can't afford enough points to make my own e-management skills worth choosing over something tied to an attribute I CANNOT have.

Know what my necromancer does for energy management?

Nothing.

IlikeGW · May 09, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by catharsis

Sure, when I get the build right, it runs like a well-oiled machine, but I sure don't have a lot of options.

This isn't any different than necro. You throw together some build with a bunch of high energy skills, you will have energy problems as a necro. SR is anything but an auto battery on it's own, otherwise practically everything would be played as a necro.

TabascoSauce · May 09, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Catharsis, that is what happens when you try and play an Ele with a Mesmer. You take enough Energy management, you are the well-oiled machine and can throw those 25 point exhaustion causing Meteor Showers.

Try being a Mesmer with a Mesmer, they do not really need the energy management because they do not have 25-point exhaustion causing Meteor Shower. Their DPS suffers, but they can manage just fine.

Your Necro would suffer the same fate were you to try and be an Ele with your Necro.

Instead, you play a Necro with your Necro, and you do OK.

Well, that was simple to debunk.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

catharsis · May 09, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Well, that was simple to debunk.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

No, not quite.

Almost every useful mesmer spell costs 10 or 15 energy. I can fit 25e beasts on my bar if I use a +15/-1 and Auspicious Incantation, and that works fine, but we don't exactly have that many to choose from. And I don't FC-nuke. If I wanted an elementalist... well, I have one of those, too.

I dunno, maybe you folks are playing completely different necro builds than I am, but pre-nerf, energy was NEVER an issue. I could easily keep 10 25e bone fiends up and kicking and still have energy left over to spam orders, heals and who knows what else. I could run 15e Arcane Echo / 2x 15e SS / spammy melee curses non-stop, without even looking at my energy bar.

Now?

Ok, admittedly, fiends are more difficult to work with, and you need to toss in some minion variation or just let them live longer instead of spamming the spell to get a fresh one every time it's ready.

SS? Down to 10e. Still not a single energy issue. Hell, I can toss in a Well of the Profane now and again with... you guessed it, no problems.

And if, by some odd chance, I should run low on energy, Signet of Lost Souls is a phenomenal e-mgmt tool.

Soul Reaping now is roughly on par with the other good primaries. The fix is inelegant, certainly, and I'm sure a less arbitrary one could have been chosen, but it's kinda tough to argue it was balanced before.

TabascoSauce · May 09, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by catharsis

Soul Reaping now is roughly on par with the other good primaries. The fix is inelegant, certainly, and I'm sure a less arbitrary one could have been chosen, but it's kinda tough to argue it was balanced before.

I am glad you asked! I was in the 1950+ post thread about SR. We came up in there with a lot of good posts, that can be boiled down to:

1.SR is only triggered by defeating enemies -or- expiring minions/spirits.
a)SR differs from other passive energy management (ex – Expertise) in that with normal use by defeating enemies in PvE it is not based directly on actions from the player, as is expertise. It also differs in that SR can apply to all allied players, not just yourself.
b)The exploit in PvP uses summoned spirits that are timed to every 5 seconds to defeat the timer. If you have 2 dedicated spirit summoners, then you are fully utilizing SR every 5 seconds while doing nothing. This exploit is not used in PvE, not being a valid tactic.
c)Thus, until gain from minions and spirits that are not yours is stopped, this will continue to be an exploitable mechanic – because it makes SR controllable by the player and distributed to all allied players.

2.SR is an attribute without damage causing skills.
a)Other passive energy management attributes have damage related skills, making them usable in 2 dimensions, as opposed to SR which is one-dimensional, just energy management

3.SR was/is not overpowered relative to other energy management attributes
a)SR, capped, is now below potential returns on Expertise, Divine Favor, Critical Strikes, Mysticism, and Leadership.
b)Comparing the skill costs for Necromancer skills vs other classes, it is easy to see that Necro skills are more expensive, rendering the Necromancer unable to keep up with his energy costs. Anet is lowering Necro skill costs because they realize this.
c)Since Necro skills are more expensive, they need better En returns that in their case, are not guaranteed. You must win in PvE to trigger SR. Why punish players for winning?
d)By lowering Necro skill costs, they are making the Necromancer a better primary than secondary. Why look for a timer when Eles can start with 90+ energy and have skills that will solve their potential energy woes? This removes the reason to be a Necro primary.

4.If Necromancers were that powerful, where were the dominant necro PvE and PvP builds that did not use the exploit mentioned above?
a)50,000 players all trying to find the most powerful builds are pretty effective, as seen in the FoTM cycles. The Necromancer was useful not ever dominant in wiki builds.
b)If the Necromancer was overpowered, then why were N/Mo not preferred over Monks? N/Ele not preferred over Ele? Because they were not better even with SR.

5.There is a cap on SR – the max energy of the Necro which tops out in the low 50s with green weapons and energy-granting armor.

I figured I would compile the ideas. I am sure I have left some things out, but this is a good start as to exactly what is going on with SR. The idea that SR is/was overpowered is frankly ludicrous. Heck, we even had one guy argue that MM made the game easier, and should be nerfed for that reason. He was educated that by his logic, Monks were next, and then Eles, and Mesmers, and 8-person teams, because they all made the game easier.

SR seems overpowered because it has no fixed cap, other than monster deaths. It is pretty powerful when you are mowing down 5th level enemies in Sardelac with a 20th level party, but you are going to win anyway. It also seems pretty powerful when a party of 8 Necros is in PvP with 2 spamming spirits in the back providing full benefit to all 8 while the other 6 spam SF in spike-deaths, right? That is a controlled usage of an attribute that was never intended to be controlled.

The right answer is to unhook spirits and minions from benefiting every Necro in range. Until that is done, SR can be manipulated to provide maximum energy with minimal risk, as opposed to the intended use of SR which is triggered on defeat of an enemy.

If you can summon up energy on command, then yes the mechanic is broken. In PvP they are doing exactly that. In PvE it was never needed, and 8 Necro teams did not dominate using that tactic, because there are hundreds of monster bots ready to die, and not a limited team of 8 in PvP. You are better off with 8 balanced players in PvE, because bots are plentiful.

So, why not close the exploit? Why artificially break a functioning primary to a level where it is better to be another class and have Necro as your secondary?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Renegade26 · May 09, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Mesmers dont suck in PvE because their energy management is bad. Power Drain and Auspicious are the two single best inspiriation skills, and that could easily include elites as well. Those two are easily enough to power any Mesmer's balanced and reasonable PvE bar.

The real issue for Mesmers is that they have their role. That is clear because they are being used in PvP to shutdown and harass enemy midline/ backlines. They work well at doing that and so not only do they have a role of harassment but they do it well.

PvE is failing to meet the requirements of the Mesmer. Each mob has its energy and health and as the fight goes on both of those go down and down naturally. The enemy monks fail at supplying decent protection and healing or even at least one of those areas so eventually the enemies die from very basic pressure applied from even the worst players.
Some skills make the job of Mesmers even more unnecesary in PvE: Elementalists have the spell Meteor Shower. Everyone knows that spell, 9 seconds of complete shutdown to an area of choice. Bunch up the monks and they will die after those 9 seconds.
Necromancers have the spell Spiteful Spirit. This spell is completely Mesmer, but I have to say Anet did well not giving this to Mesmers. Every Necro atm is suffering from MM or SS only builds, simply because they work far too well. Mesmers have no builds that work on par with the damage mitigation or inducing that an MM or SS can give.

The problem for Mesmers in PvE is that PvE is far too broken for a Mesmer to fit into this jigsaw. Shutdown is innefective and unnecesary: the enemies die over time and MS makes it impossible for the monks to deal with the mess.

The Mesmer is also seriously lacking in reasonable options. There is a long list of Mesmer skills and elites that are so bad in PvE and PvP that they never see use. PvPers dont complain because they use E-Surge, HEV, MoR and Power Block to great success. These skills are very sub par in PvE.
The choices for PvE in terms of elites are pretty much HEV in areas where it counts, E-Surge for basically trying to be a generic ele nuker and Mantra of Recovery to make the better spells on youre bar come back faster.

There is a big number of bad Mesmer skills for PvP that no PvPer would miss. Use those to give the options to Mesmers that they need.

Enchanter's Conundrum is a great example. A skill designed for damage, but its single targeted making it pretty worthless, and its "primary" effect is terrible. Its values are horrible as well: 15e 2c 20r is a horrible drawback to this skill.

Visions of Regret has huge potential in PvE but its dwarfed by SS as usual and even by Empathy in many ways. The skill could be made AoE (which is a lame but reasonable option), activate on attack and/ or adrenaline skills, or get a better recharge.

Air of Disenchantment is already AoE based and is designed to punish those with enchantments on them. The secondary condition to 10...82% slower enchantments is that it removes an enchantment. 10 1 20 again, pretty much a sign of a bad elite made simply to make up numbers. Add heavy degen to enemies not suffering from an enchantment, maybe add damage when it ends to those who still have an enchantment on them after one is removed.
Illusion is pretty bad in PvE simply because the enemies die so quickly for degen to make a strong impact. Ineptitude and Clumsiness are example of GOOD illusion spells. Damage mitigation and instant damage. Stick a lower recharge on Ineuptitude to about 16 and it would see a lot more use, and be on par with clumsiness. The blind is only a strong factor in PvP, but it is not used there because of the better options available. The damage is good and it wont break the meta to reduce the recharge.
E-Tap and Mantra of Recall are too good for monks to be using, but in this meta most monks are running LoD, ZB, RC and not so much anymore DH. GoL is seeing play, but Mo/Me is a rare sight anymore, with options like Mo/A becoming pretty standard. Its time these skills saw some love again, possibly linked to the fast casting attribute.

Echo needs to be more user friendly imo. Adding the part "the copy becomes echo after it is cast once, if the recharge of the copy is over 30 seconds." Then it would become much more useful for the Mesmer to use, because he could echo more skills and not waste time with the recharging skill.

Skills like Tease and Extend Conditions see no hope in the state they are. Rehaul them up to a standard that any ele, war or monk would expect please.

I also see putting the good E-management skills into the FC attribute as a terrible idea. Inspiration would become nothing without these skills, so moving them would kill this line. Unless Anet wants to do that.

This is my opinion; you may flame my opinion, but not me please. I have a lot of experience with Mesmers in PvE and I understand how they work and that they need their own role to become more important, than for their role to change to fit into PvE.

I also see a lot of hope from the PvE only skills, but i dont expect much from Anet anymore. They make their own lives harder most of the time.

MSecorsky · May 09, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Try being a Mesmer with a Mesmer, they do not really need the energy management because they do not have 25-point exhaustion causing Meteor Shower. Their DPS suffers, but they can manage just fine.

Well, that was simple to debunk.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I have no doubts you know a hell of a lot more about necros than I do... I never play them. But... holy crap! You have no clue about mesmers! No problems with e-management? I tend to need three inspiration line spells for energy management purposes, and, unlike soul reaping, these rely on timing to work.

Some of the spells require interrupting a casting spell. Some require a spell being cast after you cast yours (Guilt). There's no free lunches like soul reaping gives. OK, there's the one or two that give you two points for every one you steal, but it still winds up less than the cost of a good spell.

Another thing you fail to realize is that mesmers have fast casting. Yep... works like a charm, can fire off those 10e and 15e spells in no time. Sucks the energy bar clean too.

Don't need e-management because we don't cast meteor shower? Please, just stop. It's embarassing.

Chthon · May 09, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I am glad you asked! I was in the 1950+ post thread about SR. We came up in there with a lot of good posts, that can be boiled down to:

1.SR is only triggered by defeating enemies -or- expiring minions/spirits.
a)SR differs from other passive energy management (ex – Expertise) in that with normal use by defeating enemies in PvE it is not based directly on actions from the player, as is expertise. It also differs in that SR can apply to all allied players, not just yourself.
b)The exploit in PvP uses summoned spirits that are timed to every 5 seconds to defeat the timer. If you have 2 dedicated spirit summoners, then you are fully utilizing SR every 5 seconds while doing nothing. This exploit is not used in PvE, not being a valid tactic.
c)Thus, until gain from minions and spirits that are not yours is stopped, this will continue to be an exploitable mechanic – because it makes SR controllable by the player and distributed to all allied players.

2.SR is an attribute without damage causing skills.
a)Other passive energy management attributes have damage related skills, making them usable in 2 dimensions, as opposed to SR which is one-dimensional, just energy management

3.SR was/is not overpowered relative to other energy management attributes
a)SR, capped, is now below potential returns on Expertise, Divine Favor, Critical Strikes, Mysticism, and Leadership.
b)Comparing the skill costs for Necromancer skills vs other classes, it is easy to see that Necro skills are more expensive, rendering the Necromancer unable to keep up with his energy costs. Anet is lowering Necro skill costs because they realize this.
c)Since Necro skills are more expensive, they need better En returns that in their case, are not guaranteed. You must win in PvE to trigger SR. Why punish players for winning?
d)By lowering Necro skill costs, they are making the Necromancer a better primary than secondary. Why look for a timer when Eles can start with 90+ energy and have skills that will solve their potential energy woes? This removes the reason to be a Necro primary.

4.If Necromancers were that powerful, where were the dominant necro PvE and PvP builds that did not use the exploit mentioned above?
a)50,000 players all trying to find the most powerful builds are pretty effective, as seen in the FoTM cycles. The Necromancer was useful not ever dominant in wiki builds.
b)If the Necromancer was overpowered, then why were N/Mo not preferred over Monks? N/Ele not preferred over Ele? Because they were not better even with SR.

5.There is a cap on SR – the max energy of the Necro which tops out in the low 50s with green weapons and energy-granting armor.

I figured I would compile the ideas. I am sure I have left some things out, but this is a good start as to exactly what is going on with SR. The idea that SR is/was overpowered is frankly ludicrous. Heck, we even had one guy argue that MM made the game easier, and should be nerfed for that reason. He was educated that by his logic, Monks were next, and then Eles, and Mesmers, and 8-person teams, because they all made the game easier.

SR seems overpowered because it has no fixed cap, other than monster deaths. It is pretty powerful when you are mowing down 5th level enemies in Sardelac with a 20th level party, but you are going to win anyway. It also seems pretty powerful when a party of 8 Necros is in PvP with 2 spamming spirits in the back providing full benefit to all 8 while the other 6 spam SF in spike-deaths, right? That is a controlled usage of an attribute that was never intended to be controlled.

The right answer is to unhook spirits and minions from benefiting every Necro in range. Until that is done, SR can be manipulated to provide maximum energy with minimal risk, as opposed to the intended use of SR which is triggered on defeat of an enemy.

If you can summon up energy on command, then yes the mechanic is broken. In PvP they are doing exactly that. In PvE it was never needed, and 8 Necro teams did not dominate using that tactic, because there are hundreds of monster bots ready to die, and not a limited team of 8 in PvP. You are better off with 8 balanced players in PvE, because bots are plentiful.

So, why not close the exploit? Why artificially break a functioning primary to a level where it is better to be another class and have Necro as your secondary?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Excellent post. Pretty good summary. Everyone who wants to post on this subject should have to read this before doing so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade26

The problem for Mesmers in PvE is that... Shutdown is innefective and unnecesary:

That pretty much sums it up. Mesmers are a shutdown class facing enemies that aren't worth shutting down. The two possible solutions are (1) make the monsters worth shutting down -- instead of super-high levels, attack speed bonuses and other cheese difficulty, give the monsters dual professions, good skillbars, the AI to use those skillbars well -- and (2) give mesmers AoE direct damage so people can play them like eles or curse necros. Given the progression away from sorrows furnace (remember the first time you fought a dual-MoP, dual-rez mob?) towards the factions elite missions, DoA, and then hard mode, I'm going to bet that #1 is never going to happen. Keep your fingers crossed for #2.

around · May 09, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Catharsis, that is what happens when you try and play an Ele with a Mesmer. You take enough Energy management, you are the well-oiled machine and can throw those 25 point exhaustion causing Meteor Showers.

Try being a Mesmer with a Mesmer, they do not really need the energy management because they do not have 25-point exhaustion causing Meteor Shower. Their DPS suffers, but they can manage just fine.

Your Necro would suffer the same fate were you to try and be an Ele with your Necro.

Instead, you play a Necro with your Necro, and you do OK.

Well, that was simple to debunk.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Last time I checked, Domination and Illusion were MESMER skill lines, not ELEMENTALIST.

TabascoSauce · May 09, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade26

This is my opinion; you may flame my opinion, but not me please. I have a lot of experience with Mesmers in PvE and I understand how they work and that they need their own role to become more important, than for their role to change to fit into PvE.

No flames from me, in fact I will back you on buffing Mesmers, sir. Go back a few pages and you'll see me arguing just for that.

I think that you have the nail on the head - PvE does not provide as fertile an environment as PvP for using the Mesmer skills and FC, making Mesmers an awesome secondary but underused primary.

Nothing is necessarily wrong with Mesmers - they shine in PvP. But as you say, PvE is not like PvP. I advocate buffing Mesmers to make them desireable in PvE and shake up the PvE landscape from the 3 primaries of Warr/Monk/Ele.

The SR nerf only reinforces the W/M/E problem. Try getting into a PUG as a Necro.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

TabascoSauce · May 09, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

I have no doubts you know a hell of a lot more about necros than I do... I never play them. But... holy crap! You have no clue about mesmers! No problems with e-management? I tend to need three inspiration line spells for energy management purposes, and, unlike soul reaping, these rely on timing to work.

I think you know more than me about Mesmers, and I would be happy to tell you my skillbar. I do not have problems with energy though, maybe because I do not use a cookie cutter build.

I use a mes/rit, 11/10/10 for Illusion/Inspiration/Communing and usually have 2 or 3 spirits that do raw damage, like pain, anguish, etc. The rest I have recurring insecurity or migraine, spirit of failure for the en, sig of clumsiness, clumsiness, images of remorse, and sometimes a mantra of earth/flame/etc if I am going to take lots of elemental damage.

That build, while not being necessarily stellar, is good enough to win against lv 24 margonites etc in the RoT. <grin>

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Series · May 09, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by catharsis

Sure, when I get the build right, it runs like a well-oiled machine, but I sure don't have a lot of options. Want Domination AND Illusion in one build? Hey look, all of a sudden I'm forced to use Glyph of Lesser Energy at 0 energy storage, because I can't afford enough points to make my own e-management skills worth choosing over something tied to an attribute I CANNOT have.

Want to run Blood Magic AND Curses in one build? Hey look, all of a sudden I'm forced to use Glyph of Lesser Energy at 0 energy storage, because I can't afford enough points to make my own primary attribute worth choosing over something tied to an attribute I CANNOT have.

You are making the argument that because you want to max out a bunch of non-energy related attributes, you have to rely on your secondary for free e-management. How is the necromancer any different AT ALL? I don't think I quite understand why your mesmer is unable to afford any points in inspiration but your necro is able to afford points in soul reaping. Maybe because you aren't giving the necro a ridiculous build?